In this episode, Mike TV discusses storytelling and how giving the audience a little agency can allow for myriad experiences of the very same piece of art. This, he argues, is something to be embraced and cherished and pursued. Perhaps not with every song or story but, sometimes, leaving room for multiple interpretations invites the audience to consider and hopefully, come away with a more nuanced and less black-and-white perspective about the world around them. Which, sad to say, seems to be less in favor today than ever. This episode features the songs I'll Come Around, My Bike My Love, A Wound that Never Bleeds, A Heat That Kills, and Child of God.
0:00 Episode Intro
0:25 Tip of the hat to the patrons
0:49 Cold Open
3:25 [Song] I'll Come Around
7:26 Main Title
8:00 My Bike, My Love Lead-In
8:35 [Song] My Bike, My Love
12:15 A Wound That Never Bleeds Lead-In
17:41 [Song] A Wound That Never Bleeds
21:53 A Heat That Kills Lead-In
24:36 [Song] A Heat That Kills
27:45 Child of God Lead-In
30:10 [Song] Child of God
36:26 Child of God Follow-Up
38:58 Episode Summation
39:35 Patreon Plug
40:46 END
Episode Intro:
Hey, I’m Mike TV and this is Hesitation Cuts. On today’s episode we are going to be discussing expectation and how much fun it can be to subvert or twist expectation to keep a narrative fresh and interesting. Songs, even the more lyrically obtuse songs, have a built-in narrative just based on their basic structure. You start at the beginning and continue to the end. But, it’s what you do with this narrative that makes storytelling, and songwriting, so compelling.
Patreon Promo:
But, before we get started, I do want to say that this show, the hundreds if not thousands of hours of work that I put into each season of this podcast is paid for, supported by, and made possible by the obviously wildly intelligent, most likely spectacularly good looking, and very definitely munificent folk that are my Patreon patrons. If any part of this episode works, if it moves you, if it excites you, if it thrills you, you have them to thank.
Cold Open:
Let’s take the way-back machine to 2007, I’m living in Glendale, California, which is basically Los Angeles, and I’m living with my roommates Jon Rustad of the band, Underwater City People, and Kevin Fisher of the band, Midway, and I have just sat down to write the bulk of what will eventually become Get Set Go’s fourth album, Sunshine, Joy, and Happiness.
Now, I have found that it’s much easier for me to write in bulk. I simply apportion a few months for songwriting and then sit down every day, seven days a week, for that period, and write one or two songs a day. The great thing about writing in this fashion is that it allows me fully exercise my songwriting…muscles, if you will, and so I traditionally start off writing very simple songs, like an athlete would stretch before playing a game, I keep them simple and not overly taxing, and I will write a handful of songs over the first four or five days that I don’t really care too much about. Lyrically, they’re silly or nonsensical, chordally, they’re very simple. 1, 4, 5 or 1, 3, 6 chord progressions and then eventually work my way up to writing more complicated songs with inventive chord progressions and structures that are more lyrically adventurous. And, then, when I feel like I have enough excellent material, I will spend a week or two writing completely weird songs, where I try to break the rules of songwriting but still come up with songs that are catchy and compelling.
And on this particular day, I was in the middle section of this songwriting extravaganza, where I was trying to write a little bit more thoughtful tunes, and I sat down to write an homage to the Proclaimers’ song, I’m Gonna Be (500 Miles), you know the song, “I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more just to be the man who walks a thousand miles to fall down at your door”.
And after some tinkering and concentrated songwriting, I ended up with my song, I’ll Come Around. And it was, initially, very much in the same vein as the Proclaimers song. It was about enduring in the name of love. Going the distance. Not letting anything distract or derail my passion for the person to whom I was singing.But somewhere in the writing of the song, I realized, oh, actually, this song, when looked at from a different perspective, with a little lyrical tweaking, could have a completely different meaning.
And that was really exciting to me. Just as I am attracted to framing dark lyrics, self-destructive lyrics, dystopian or damaged-relationship lyrics to upbeat melodies and cheery arrangements, so too am I attracted to writing songs that give my listener options in terms of how they interpret my songs.
By inviting my audience to choose the lens through which they look at my music, it makes us both collaborators in the narrative. I mean, frankly, all art does this to a greater or lesser degree. The artist makes the art but it’s not until an audience member engages with that art that the artistic experience actually occurs. But for me, it’s fun to call attention to that fact. To put a spotlight on it. And actively encourage a listener to think a little deeper about what they’re listening to.
I’ll Come Around Insert 1:
Okay now to judo flip this narrative.Imagine this song as if it was being sung by an obsessive stalker.
I’ll Come Around Insert 2:
And once I realized that this song could work as both a genuine love song as well as a song sung from the perspective of an obsessive crazy person, I modified to the lyrics to make sure that it worked perfectly from both perspectives.
Main Title:
Hey, I’m Mike TV and this is Episode 8 of Season 2 of the only show that gives you a deep, intimate, perhaps frightening, dive into the mind of a lunatic obsessed with screaming his story into the void while being buffeted by hurricane force winds. On today’s episode, we explore the gift of surprise. How some songs are able to take us to unexpected places and provide us a panoply of perspectives all in the matter of a few short minutes.
My Bike, My Love Lead-In:
Now, I’ll Come Around is not the only song that I’ve written that can evoke multiple interpretations, where each perspective transforms it into a completely different song. My songwriting compatriot, Allie Goertz, back in 2014, I want to say, approached me about writing a song about riding bicycles. She and a friend were putting together a compilation of songs about biking and wanted a contribution from me. And, of course, always appreciating a songwriting challenge, I said, sure, I will write you a song about biking. Ha! Ha!
And so I went home and considered bikes and considered the people I know who ride bikes and are obsessed with riding bikes, and then I wrote this song…
[My Bike, My Love Song]
My Bike, My Love Insert 1: Now, of course, it was fun to write the silly, over-the-top sexy man-who-loves-his-machine-too-much romance perspective but, one of my British audience members brought up the fact that this song could actually work as social commentary. Now, it is a bit crass, but hey, I’ve never shied away from crass.But, bike, in British slang, means a promiscuous woman. As in, the town bike. You take her for a ride. And if you look at this song through that lens, it takes on a very different meaning.
Mike Bike, My Love Insert 2
So looking at this song from the perspective of the word bike meaning a fuck buddy, suddenly this becomes a much darker and sadder song.
My Bike, My Love Insert 3: And this Let Us Rollsection…
is now a plaintive cry…
It is a plaintive cry to just be allowed to live the life they want to live, even though, it’s actually his own prejudice and fear of being judged by his peers that is preventing him from pursuing a deeper relationship.
A Wound That Never Bleeds Lead-In
So because I missed this interpretation in the actual songwriting, you know, I’m not British, and didn’t realize that the word bike was used in the British vernacular in such a way, I wasn’t able to fine-tune the lyrics to smooth out the multiple interpretations. But, it does work 90%. I mean, the “I love my bike, I love her like a girl” line is a bit weird if you’re actually talking about a human woman, but ah, you know, I could make a case for it working.
Now, of course, I when it was written, I was just poking fun at my bike obsessed friends. Because, I certainly do have friends that are hard-core into biking. And this song is very much for them. But, the much less obvious but no less valid interpretation, an interpretation I didn’t even consider until well after the song was written and being played in front of audiences was that this song is about a broken, sad-sack that is unable to reconcile himself to the idea that the woman he loves has had many sexual partners and within a certain subset of folks that he gives way too much credence to, because they look askance at her life choices, it compels him to not fully embrace the woman he loves.
How awesome an interpretation is that?!
So, this time, the gift of surprise came from the listener and was delivered to the artist.
So, this is something I do often endeavor to deliver musically with some frequency. I’ll write a song, look at the lyrics, look at the arrangements, and realize that there are potentially multiple layers of meaning and interpretation that can be built into it with some tweaking, rewriting, or massaging. And I will try to layer in those deeper meanings.And sometimes I talk about them. And sometimes I don’t. But, I do feel that they’re always felt. And that could just be wishful thinking on my part but tell me if you don’t think there’s a little more contemplation put into a Tom Waits track than, say, a Ramones track. Not to disparage the Ramones at all. I love the Ramones.
Another thing that I really love to do, that also falls into the category of the gift of surprise is I will establish a baseline emotional tenor, I’ll present an idea and deliver it in a way that I know resonates deeply with me, and then I’ll add a little extra heat to the musical salsa. I’ll set up an expectation, deliver on that expectation, and then I’ll try to double down.
In 2017, I had put out 45-song album that was a collection of songs that I had written and recorded that just didn’t make it on any Get Set Go record. They were great songs but they had been written and recorded between records and, believe it or not, were just sorta forgotten about. That’s one of the pitfalls of writing hundreds and hundreds of songs over the course of a decade. You produce so much, songs often fall through the cracks.
So, I gathered up all the studio outtakes, the forgotten tracks, the musical detritus that had potential, and I added full or partial arrangements, and then I put out Get Set Go’s, This is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things in 2017. And it was such a fun listening experience, having a 2 and ½ hour album with a whole panoply of different vibes but still a complete Get Set Go listening experience.
But part of me bristled that This is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things wasn’t composed with an overarching intention in mind.It was really just a hodge podge of forgotten songs recorded over the past decade. So, I decided I wanted write a whole slew of new songs with the intention of making a comparable record, but doing so with more focus on an over-arching narrative. This is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things was sorta like a collection of shorts stories.And I wanted to write another chapter in the novel of my life, that is my musical oeuvre. So, I blocked out a few months of writing time and ended up writing about a hundred songs, and then bringing them to my Twitch audience and Discord folk, and with the help of my community, I culled those songs down to the just the hits.
And I was figuring I’d end up with enough material for an album comparable to Ordinary World. But, turns out, I ended up with 48 tracks. Now, my benchmark for including a track on this new record was peoples’ reactions to the rough mix recordings. So, as I was completing them, I would proffer them to my community, and if at least one person expressed that they loved the recording then it was a keeper. So, I recorded 48 songs, in total, and 46 of them got the thumbs up.
But, while writing and recording this record, I mean, writing 100 songs and then recording 48 full-band arrangements, it is a lot of work, and so, I didn’t go out much. I didn’t see friends. I just worked. I live-streamed. I recorded.I wrote. Over and over. I lost my mind a few times. I had some very public breakdowns on Twitch. But, I also, during this time, I did a big 3 month tour across the US and Europe, completed the album, I put out a couple songbooks. So, despite my erratic mental health, I was still, basically, just a little dynamo. And at one point in time, I looked up and realized, oh, shoot, I’m really feeling very lonely.
Chewing off this much work, writing 100+ songs, recording the album, the 3-month tour, the songbooks, I had no time for people. And, because I do have a workaholic bent in me, it sometimes takes months and months for me to check in with myself. And when I did, I realized, oh, yeah. I need people. But, the problem with that is, if you spend enough time away from people, it’s hard to remember how to connect. Social skills do atrophy if they are not used.
And so, I thought, well, let me try to capture what this intense brand of loneliness feels like in song. And so, on a Monday, as I was engaged in this protracted songwriting process, I wrote my song See Me. Which you have heard in this podcast and there’s actually a new version out, or rather a modified version out, on my latest album Precious Mettle.
But, at the time of its writing, I wasn’t certain how I felt about See Me. I thought it had potential. But, I hadn’t yet introduced it to my Twitch audience and I felt like the lyrics were a bit on the nose. That it didn’t have enough nuance. And didn’t exactly capture the flavor of my particular loneliness. Or rather, it did capture an aspect of it. But not the complete picture. So, the very next day, on Tuesday, I sat down again, with the intention of writing a song about loneliness, and I wrote this tune. It’s called A Wound That Never Bleeds.
A Wound That Never Bleeds Insert:
And of course, it’s the wounds that do bleed that get all the attention. Right?
A Wound That Never Bleeds Insert 2:
Okay, we’ve established the loneliness. Now, let’s double down.
A Heat That Kills Lead-In:
I wrote A Wound that Never Bleeds because even though I was very lonely, and I wasn’t hanging out with my friends much, I would often go to Cosmic, a bar-slash-coffeeshop that is walking distance from me, and I would go there to just people watch and be around other living human beings. And when you’re very, very lonely, you sorta project an isolation field. You speak to a barista and they don’t engage in small talk. You talk to a grocery store checker and it’s the same thing.You walk through the world where people are grouped up and laughing and being human and you feel very much apart from.
And I saw someone else, at Cosmic, that was projecting the same sort of loneliness field. Now, of course, I could have been misreading the situation.100%. But, for me, it just felt like they too, by their forlorn seeming demeanor, it felt like they were a kindred spirit. And seeing this person, in their own little bubble of isolation, that lead to the conception of this song. The song I wrote the day before, See Me, was about me lamenting the fact that I felt unseen by the world around me. So, I was like, what if I were to flip that narrative? What if I were to say, hey, I see you. In your loneliness, in your isolation, I see you.
And not only do I see you, I am you. I too suffer from the same malady. The affliction of loneliness.
And I have often written songs, multiple songs about an idea or an emotional tenor, uncertain which song captures it best.And that’s awesome. Because, on that very album, lives A Wound That Never Bleeds, See Me, Strangers Growing Stranger, and a bunch of other songs that address loneliness from multiple perspectives.
I’ve written multiple songs about having a bad day, including I Hate Everyone and Die Motherfucker Die. Multiple songs about the struggles of being a songwriter, such as Music Makes Me Want To Die, The Great Indie-Rock Swindle, Into the Deep, Confessions of a Professional Songwriter, and over and over, I keep coming back to similar themes because you know, there’s a lot to be said on the business of being a human being. And there are lots compelling ways to say it. And then frame those words in music, which adds even more meaning. You know, saying, I’m having a really wonderful day written over a major key progression and sung jauntily is very different than using those exact same words, over a minor key progression and sung lugubriously.Same words, two very different meanings.
And I feel that the minor key version is gonna be way more exciting because it’s full of mystery. Why would someone say they’re having a wonderful day if the music is suggesting completely the opposite. And then where do you go with that?
But even with major chords and major keys, because, frankly, for the first decade of my music career, I very rarely wrote songs in minor keys. I mean, I’ve since made up for that and then some, but even in the early days of Get Set Go, even though I was mostly using major chords and writing songs in major keys, I still wrote some songs that took the listener to interesting and unexpected places.
A Heat That Kills Insert 1:
So, I don’t want to give anything away just yet. But I can say that what’s happening in this song is the most significant thing to have ever happened to our protagonist.And he’s so overwhelmed that he just can’t face it.
A Heat That Kills Insert 2: So, this fellow’s partner has committed suicide by swallowing a bunch of pills in the bathtub. And, of course, our protagonist is struggling with processing exactly what has happened.
Child of God Lead-In:
So, our protagonist arrives home, discovers that his partner has killed themselves by swallowing all the pills, whatever pills they might be. And in his moment of shock, he keeps vacillating between, oh shit, did I do something wrong, did I precipitate this? Were things you asked me to do, that I just didn’t do? Was I too self-involved?How did I miss that you were going to do this? But also, because he’s in shock and can’t really face what’s gone on, he’s distracted by the heat, and the plants are dying, and the cat hasn’t been fed. You know, life is moving on and crashing up against him as he’s trying to process .
And so, I tried to put the listener inside his head. Which means, I couldn’t just outright say, “oh, my love has just killed themselves” because he’s not really able to admit that himself. He’s in a shock. And is vacillating between blaming himself and seeing the cat has needs and the plants have needs and his partner had needs and now no longer doesn’t and it’s too painful and so he roils. He’s just a tumult of chaos.
And I don’t know if works 100%. You’re gonna have to be the judge of that. But, that’s the great thing about art, right?Each of us is the arbiter of what is art to us. Each of us gets to decide. And anyone that thinks they have the power to take that away from you is an asshole.And, in fact, that’s one of the wonderful things about music, something that I have often tried to do as a songwriter, an author can create a song that gives the listener an enormous amount of agency when interpreting what’s occurring in the song. The surprise that occurs can be created by the listener.
Certainly, there are many novels and movies that do this. But, songs are wonderful in this regard because they don’t ask hours from you to experience them. And then, in a few short minutes, you are able to have a lengthy discourse about personal perspectives on the song.
And so, when a songwriter actively courts myriad interpretations, for me, that’s a really exciting prospect. And yet, alas, it doesn’t seem to be done too often. Or, maybe or, actua…maybe, there are thousands of songs that do this and I’m just too busy with my own stuff to pay attention. I’m willing to admit, I am not the best digester of other folks music.I do care and I do try. But there’s only so many hours in a day.
One of the things that is most thrilling for me, is to hear other people’s interpretations of my songs. Just like, My Bike, My Love, and that very salient and completely unexpected perspective from a member of my British community, it’s always wonderful to discover new, thoughtful perspectives on my songs, particularly when I write them with that intention. Because, sometimes people come up with perspectives that just blow my mind. Here’s a great example. I wanted to write a song that,…well, actually, hold on. Let’s just give it a listen.
Child of God Insert 1: Now, one of the most fascinating attributes of this song is that each listener I’ve played it for seems to have their own interpretation of what’s actually happening in this song. But, I don’t want to make any suggestions because it will color yours. So, we’ll wait til the end to discuss.
Child of God Insert 2: So, this was my first and only attempt at writing a legitimately scary song. And so, I left a lot of the details vague so that your imagination could fill in the blanks.
Child of God Follow-Up:
Now, it’s crazy how many people have wildly different interpretations of Child of God. Some folks look at it as a love song. Just a boy that loved a girl that died and that love carries on to this day.But, I certainly added elements that were designed to add some creep factor. Like the old man. Sure, he could just be some old guy that really likes spending time with 10-year-old kids and has them sit on his lap in a completely platonic and friendly way.And he makes them hot chocolate and strokes a girls face while she sings to him. Sure. It could be totally innocent. But, it could also not be innocent.And that was intentional. So, I leave it up to the listener to read between the lines as they see fit.
In fact, this whole song was inspired by Forrest Gump, believe it or not. Because, Jenny, the female lead, played by Robin Wright, there’s a really amazing scene where she, as an adult returns to her childhood home. This ramshackle, rundown shack. And she starts throwing stones at it. And in that scene, you get a sense that there were horrors that happened at that house.Horrors that go unexplained but are certainly felt. And they don’t need to be explained. It’s best left to our imaginations.
And so, I decided I was gonna try to write a song that tried to do something similar. And I was going to leave it vague enough to let people’s imaginations fill in the blanks. But, it’s been so gratifying to see how the variety of interpretations. Some folks have gone down the darkest path with the song.Some have interpreted that she was a victim of abuse and that abuse killed her. Some have interpreted the ending of the song, when our protagonist hears her voice singing to him at night, that the boy is actually mentally unwell and is hearing her voice as a result of the trauma of losing his friend.Or dig this, some folks have postulated that the female character doesn’t even exist. That instead, the boy created this person, because he’s the one being abused, and he’s created this mental surrogate so that his imaginary friend could suffer the abuse in his stead.
Just incredible, right?! So, this song was purposefully left up for interpretation and my listeners delivered. They become co-writers of the narrative. And how amazing is that?
So, sometimes it can be really rewarding to offer the gift of surprise. To set up an expectation and then deliver something unexpected. And I would encourage folks that work with narratives, and that is all of us, just choosing the clothes you wear each day is telling world something about you,and once you embrace that fact, that each of us is telling our story, one day at a time, one decision at a time, one conversation to the next, I would encourage you to consider spicing up your narrative by throwing in unexpected choices, offering collaborations with your audience, letting them help you tell your story and embracing them for it.
Episode Summation:
So, that’s the episode. All artistic experiences are collaborations between the artist and their audience. Even if that audience is the artist themselves, looking back at their art hours, days, months or even years later. The best art, in my estimation, evolves and grows alongside the person experiencing it, so that they can come back, year over year and find and discover new insights and new enjoyment. I don’t know if I have achieved that with these songs. Only you can be the arbiter of my success for you. But, I certainly endeavor, every day, to make art that endures, evolves, and contributes a little piece of me to the folks that want it.
Patreon Close: Being an indie-rocker, in this day and age, as I have very clearly elucidated in this podcast repeatedly, is a really tough gig. Hourly, I make a little bit less than minimum wage. Which means I have to work and work very hard to earn my daily bread. But, you can help out, right now. For a dollar a week, you could assist me in making all the music, telling all the stories, touring all the tours, writing all the books, you could be the wind in my sails and the star that guides me from the tumultuous waters I currently ply to uncharted, unimaginable new vistas. And, of course, I’ll take you along for the ride. For single buck. I don’t know anything else that’ll give you so much value for so little.
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See next episode!
Be well. Eat your veggies. Live forever!